tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post189352238767594614..comments2023-05-31T11:18:01.609-04:00Comments on The Velomobile Observer: Four-wheel velomobile and power assistLuc On The Gohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06270789105989269682noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-31716353970416116152021-02-22T08:28:41.986-05:002021-02-22T08:28:41.986-05:00UK eBikes I have read all the comments and suggest...<a href="https://www.electricrider.co.uk/" rel="nofollow">UK eBikes</a> I have read all the comments and suggestions posted by the visitors for this article are very fine,We will wait for your next article so only.Thanks!agentprincehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05454235830239392141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-31992207128767807642019-02-03T20:04:00.399-05:002019-02-03T20:04:00.399-05:00Velomobile Seminar proceedings are now freely avai...Velomobile Seminar proceedings are now freely available online at: "www.velomobileseminars.online". The early seminars have been digitised (they were originally only in paper form). The later seminars have been compiled from the various presentations/papers. Having said that, the 2015 set is not yet complete (I met one of the organisers in summer 2018 and there is hope to compile them during 2019).PedalForward (SimonB)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02960675816870502568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-19156260808962358132016-03-07T13:58:24.271-05:002016-03-07T13:58:24.271-05:00Lucky Swiss - velonauts of all sorts of velomobile...Lucky Swiss - velonauts of all sorts of velomobiles can enjoy theirs assisted velomobiles much better then the rest of the Europe.<br /><br />Eric, thanks for a clever article :) Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15152207000244830161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-42786728195590089492016-03-07T13:53:04.043-05:002016-03-07T13:53:04.043-05:00There have been high profile deaths in professiona...There have been high profile deaths in professional cycle racing but, as far as I'm aware, never any call for speed limitations...<br /><br />There is an industry-push from some EU bike & component manufacturers for 45km/h e-bikes but I'm not convinced there is enthusiasm beyond those wanting to make/sell them. It would seem to be low priority on the legislative agenda whilst the car industry has the ear of government.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16094081689229845843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-47802329406955712962016-03-07T13:52:26.619-05:002016-03-07T13:52:26.619-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16094081689229845843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-34375536644508266652016-03-07T12:35:37.447-05:002016-03-07T12:35:37.447-05:00Well, then you have to think about what the purpos...Well, then you have to think about what the purpose of "assist" is, and have to change how a lot of jurisdictions think about these things. (But, then, "velomobile" isn't a legal term, just an industry classification. Hypothetically you could build something that's a true velomobile, but is legally required to meet full motorcycle or even car regulations, due to going faster than 25 mph (four wheels in the US or Canada), 45 km/h (Europe), or 30 mph (three wheels in most US states) under assist depending on what class you're going for and how many wheels it has.)<br /><br />At 45 km/h, you're looking at European moped or L6e light quadricycle regulations, really. (And, moped regulations in most US states, for that matter.) Granted, some European jurisdictions (Germany comes to mind) have special treatment for moped-classed e-bikes (or, in their legal terminology, "schnell pedelecs"). Or, for four-wheelers, in the US, you're looking at either slowing to 25 mph to comply with low-speed vehicle regulations, or complying with full-on car regulations. (And, I'm not even sure if an LSV is allowed to exceed 25 mph under <i>any</i> form of power input, even human power. So, the LSV class may be useless to four-wheel velomobiles on the flat, although it's definitely useful for the velocars.)<br /><br />If you think of assist as something to help a heavy but aerodynamic velomobile get off the line and up hills, though, then even the strict European 25 km/h limit is likely adequate, and the 250 W power limit, IMO, would make things like the ELF less workable. (It's worth noting that the Twike is Swiss, and Switzerland's pedelec regulations are essentially a copy and paste of the European pedelec laws, but with 500 watts to aid in mountain climbing.) But, given that we're talking about industry classification of "velomobile" vs. "velocar", not laws...<br /><br />And, really, speaking of laws... I don't know that regulators would be open to raising speed limits on electric bicycle classes - higher speeds result in reduced safety (less reaction time available to respond to a hazardous situation, more kinetic energy transferred in such a collision, less vehicle stability). And, given that, I almost wonder if regulators may try to respond to high velomobile speeds under <i>human</i> power, if velomobiles gain popularity, by restricting allowable speeds. (Then again, they haven't done anything about upright road bikes speeding, and there have been deaths caused by irresponsible riding when looking for Strava high scores.)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14079513952888145252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-45490715395543112822016-03-07T12:33:41.541-05:002016-03-07T12:33:41.541-05:00Eric's suggestion of 'velocar' works w...Eric's suggestion of 'velocar' works well and has has history behind it :)<br />Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16094081689229845843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-5765182352134276762016-03-07T09:17:30.519-05:002016-03-07T09:17:30.519-05:00Eric: Thank you for the comment, it provides an ov...Eric: Thank you for the comment, it provides an overview of the current landscape of assist regulations in Europe and the USA. As you know, I think that assist in a velomobile should be just that and there should be power to the pedals to extract the power of the assist. Maybe the power should be given on a ratio based on how much the rider pedals; the rider pedals lightly, the controller gives little assist power pedal hard and get full assist. I don't know if limiting the maximum speed at least to the same level as a non-faired bike is appropriate for a velomobile; maybe 45km/h for 250W or maybe just 200W or something like that. This would at least provide an incentive for the manufacturers to keep the design efficient, not make a complete mockery of assist. These velomobiles should be equipped with proper turning signals, lights, etc. Anything above that power pedal or not should be classed as a Nano Car, Velocar or whatever as long as it is not a velomobile.Luc On The Gohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06270789105989269682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-46964139668291365372016-03-07T01:00:53.513-05:002016-03-07T01:00:53.513-05:00Maybe pulling a name from velomobile and recumbent...Maybe pulling a name from velomobile and recumbent history would be appropriate for the vehicles you describe as "nano-cars" (such as the ELF) - call them velocars.<br /><br />It's worth noting that post-war Vélocars were rather quick to sprout 100 cc engines, putting them in the <i>voiture sans permis</i> category (or, nowadays, the European L6e light quadricycle category, which effectively is a four-wheel moped legally). But, even when they were human-powered, Vélocars were trying to be <i>cars</i>.<br /><br />I'd also say that there's a few different ways to look at propulsion systems, and whether a vehicle with electric assist is still a velomobile, or is a velocar.<br /><br />If it's human-powered, probably a velomobile.<br /><br />If it's a European-style pedelec (25 km/h/15.5 mph max until assist cuts out, 250 W max, must be pedaling to get assist), it's still probably a velomobile, especially if the human-powered model exists and is practical to ride as a velomobile. The motor assists the rider.<br /><br />If it's against all of the legal limits of a US-style low-speed electric bicycle (20 mph/32 km/h max until assist cuts out, 750 W max, can use throttle), it's probably not a velomobile any more, if it ever was. So, the ELF is a velocar, under this classification. Not a velomobile, but legally a bicycle in the US (or at least the states that recognize the federal law). The rider assists the motor. (Or, the rider doesn't assist the motor, and just lays on the throttle.) And, really, a lot of these velocars are working in the North American environment, where there's no equivalent to something like the French <i>voiture sans permis</i> class (although, that class doesn't exist in France any more, IIRC - L6e requiring a moped license, and allowing for 45 km/h/28 mph), except for abusing the limits of the low-speed electric bicycle class. Then again, the equivalent to the modern L6e class in the US would be the low-speed vehicle class, which allows 25 mph/40.2 km/h, with very relaxed limits otherwise. That class is full of glorified golf carts with lead acid batteries, plus the odd L6e car converted for US use, but I suspect someone could get a fairly beefy ELF-esque four wheel vehicle through it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14079513952888145252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-11426739170104810562016-03-03T16:52:04.971-05:002016-03-03T16:52:04.971-05:00Luc, I don´t think I will change your mind, but I ...Luc, I don´t think I will change your mind, but I try to explain my point of view.<br /><br />A few years ago I was a national level competition glider pilot. (Beautiful sport) That time we - the pure sportsmen - has doubts about the sense of motorgliders and sport value of them. Its mentally different world and I disliked them. But if I had to fly daily to work, my choice will be a motorglider - effective,fun and not so dependent on weather. The glider pilot licence was enough for both machines.<br /><br />That´s why I understand you, but disagree with you. The technology is here to help us and our minds, hearts and responsibility should lead us on the right way.<br /><br />The velomobile is a kind of a bicycle, right? The bicycle is not only sport machine but also an economic and ecologic transport, touring, lifestyle, hobby, fitness, art ......! The same potential have a velomobile! The right design and clever rules might lead to something greater then individual downhill speed record adrenaline satisfaction!<br /><br /> <br /><br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15152207000244830161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-62509006716483475792016-03-03T09:44:26.880-05:002016-03-03T09:44:26.880-05:00Again, since a velomobile is a Human Powered Vehic...Again, since a velomobile is a Human Powered Vehicle, how could we say the assist should be about five times the sustained power of an individual and higher than the capacity of 95% of bike rider to be able produce this for peak power on any given day.Luc On The Gohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06270789105989269682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-27753378185760463642016-03-03T03:21:01.418-05:002016-03-03T03:21:01.418-05:00Yes, I do agree with keeping assistance output on ...Yes, I do agree with keeping assistance output on some decent level. It will keep motivation to construct light machines with good aerodinamics. On the other side ability to keep speed of 25 km/h (EU pedelec limit) up every steep hill and good acceleration on the lights will be perfect for comfort as well as for safety. 25 km/ h is easy speed almost for everybody on flat terrain even without assistance. So why to not get that advantage?<br /><br />From my point of view is better to limit empty weight and assisted speed - not the motor output. And if yes- lets set the limit to 1000 Watt - even the overveight riders and cargo bikes will get the chance. And usually you get a little less than you ask, so better to ask a bit more :).Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15152207000244830161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-22011909819746357242016-03-02T14:48:04.237-05:002016-03-02T14:48:04.237-05:00By coincidence in the UK media today:
http://www.b...By coincidence in the UK media today:<br />http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/an-e-bike-with-more-than-250-watts-of-power-is-a-moped-warn-orgs/019175Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16094081689229845843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-57089134620187986282016-03-02T13:07:03.325-05:002016-03-02T13:07:03.325-05:00Exactly Luc - mopeds are a nuisance on Dutch cycle...Exactly Luc - mopeds are a nuisance on Dutch cyclepaths. The proposed 50km/h eBikes would presumably offer the same level of danger.<br />Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16094081689229845843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-21003490608653445292016-03-02T12:59:01.459-05:002016-03-02T12:59:01.459-05:00'faster than 40km/h' depends very much on ...'faster than 40km/h' depends very much on terrain... I have lived in cities where most any pedal cycle, or indeed an unpowered skateboard, could achieve that easily on the downhills...<br />Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16094081689229845843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-53696161823236456982016-03-02T10:57:42.648-05:002016-03-02T10:57:42.648-05:00While I agree that some kind of low power assist c...While I agree that some kind of low power assist can be useful in a velomobile, I think the threshold has to remain low. Small vehicles based on velomobile technology that have more power should jump to another category and even require clear identification. I agree that there may be cases for limiting the speed on some bicycle paths but in this case there should be an alternative. I understand that some countries force bikes to use cycle paths when available and restricting speed would be a deterrent to the use of efficient transportation. On the other hand, if alternative powered vehicles gain access to cycle paths, their size/weight along with their speed could force regular bicycles out of the road. Drivers of these vehicles may start claiming the path as theirs like cars have done on many roads or get unfaired cyclists to demand that bikes with fairings including velomobiles be banned altogether affecting HPVs. There is a very delicate balance and this is why a separate category should be introduced as I suggested. I'm not opposed to some manufacturers use some of their resources to tap into the market but I'm also worried that soon enough it will be easier to design and produce a larger and heavier velomobile and slap on an engine than designing a building an efficient lightweight velomobile that can travel at over 50km/h under human power.Luc On The Gohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06270789105989269682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-48862008862197895922016-03-02T03:58:48.680-05:002016-03-02T03:58:48.680-05:00Let's keep working together as preserving the ... Let's keep working together as preserving the positive energy of the velomobile community and continued growth of the industry should be top priority for all."<br /><br />Other way take your velo and go for a ride to calm down! :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15152207000244830161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-64227571244215699972016-03-02T03:42:07.921-05:002016-03-02T03:42:07.921-05:00Hi Rob. Sorry for that 6 kg if you are an average ...Hi Rob. Sorry for that 6 kg if you are an average Japanese. One good lunch and bottle of water will make it.<br /><br />In todays Europe there is a pedelec category fully under bicycle legislation.<br /><br />In my opinion every bicycle faster then 30 km/h should be excluded from urban bicycle paths and share roads with cars (bus lanes) or go to velodrome.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15152207000244830161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-10156853992760520522016-03-02T03:30:12.866-05:002016-03-02T03:30:12.866-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15152207000244830161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-68761434435763783082016-03-02T01:37:31.123-05:002016-03-02T01:37:31.123-05:00"Even lightest machine with average driver we..."Even lightest machine with average driver weight more then 100 kg"<br />I'm 70kg, my EvoK was 24kg from the factory.<br /><br />Putting motors on bicycles has been 'a thing' since the 1880s. They are a *different thing* and are called motorbikes. They have a whole lot of extra legislation compared to the simplicity of the bicycle in all it's flavours.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16094081689229845843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-87583855940212911052016-03-01T19:15:06.797-05:002016-03-01T19:15:06.797-05:00Hi Luc. Respect to all your great job, but...I wil...Hi Luc. Respect to all your great job, but...I will use the words from your blog : The last thing we would want is for any kind of "us vs them" attitude to develop towards the velomobile enthusiasts. Let's keep working together as preserving the positive energy of the velomobile community and continued growth of the industry should be top priority for all."<br /><br />Leo Visscher is right - and time will prove it - assisted velomobile is simply more practical and fun and will attract more people - good for velomobile community power.<br /><br />In my opinion the problem is SPEED!!! Even lightest machine with average driver weight more then 100 kg. At 40 km/h on the park bicycle path is a killing machine doesn´t matter if assisted or not. With increased number of velomobiles some rules will be necessary. Working together will help to make them better.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />ReplyAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15152207000244830161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-82512791233942718212016-02-25T13:20:24.600-05:002016-02-25T13:20:24.600-05:00We already have riders pushing the aerodynamic env...We already have riders pushing the aerodynamic envelope - with road riders using hoods to push the efficiency of road-going velomobiles.<br />We have the Battle Mountain race for those interested in specialised absolute speed.<br />We already have domestic racing pushing designs and efficiency.<br />We have the World Championship/CycleVision events where the 3-hr race encourages the use of efficient machines.<br />We have had the linear k-drive. It has it's problems and is rarely seen anymore.<br />We are already buying this kit when it is good. Homebuilders push the envelope where the manufacturers don't.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16094081689229845843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-14497476825760380112016-02-25T11:32:54.347-05:002016-02-25T11:32:54.347-05:00I am one of those who feel that any design of velo...I am one of those who feel that any design of velomobile should also meet the various specifications set out in different countries covering e-bike use. It should also be possible to limit the weight of pedal only powered single person velomobiles to a max. of 75 kgs. with the extra weight for the e-powered ones just limited to the battery, motor and controls only. I would also like to see governments lifting their restrictions against the four wheel designs because of the instability in cornering of the tricycle type. Although the present design of velomobiles is very much more efficient aerodynamically then bicycles, I think there is still potential for another half reduction, or more, in wind drag, so that an ordinary person, could keep up a pace by pedalling alone, on the flat for countless kilometers, of say 50 KPH., using only e-power for hill climbing and accelerating away from stop. I would like to see comparative velomobile designs between rotary and linear (Treadle) pedal layouts. Comparing the higher mechanical efficiency of rotary pedalling against the far smaller more aerodynamically efficient body possible with the linear pedal arrangement. Large, very economically constructed wind tunnels made from house construction materials, like the "Geevers" wind tunnel would be very useful in extracting the greatest potential of human powered vehicles. I also feel that if most of people's commuting was done by the using of velomobiles, huge reductions in public spending on healthcare and infrastructure would be possible, not to say their financial well being as well. JB0070https://www.blogger.com/profile/09301775192517267918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-62915992560100675152016-02-14T05:19:34.538-05:002016-02-14T05:19:34.538-05:00Make what you like. Sell what you can.
Don't s...Make what you like. Sell what you can.<br />Don't steal our name. Make a new one.<br />Velomobile is a human powered vehicle - a bicycle in most legislations.<br />If you are making an electric motorbike/micro car then call it that. Don't use our established name.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16094081689229845843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3052588339740303416.post-89032727301487649332016-02-14T02:28:55.632-05:002016-02-14T02:28:55.632-05:00Hi Luc, history will tell us what is in the name i...Hi Luc, history will tell us what is in the name in the future. A few years ago I started using "snelfiets" in the Netherlands for bikes with electro and 45 km/h. No one started using it so far. I call it velomobile to because there is not one definition of a velomobile. Even your group of people like to use some electro assistance hill up, or use accu's for save lichting systems and not a dynamo. And then use a strange type of definition of saying that then 250 Watt max is still a velomobile. And than using the 250 Watt above the speed of 25 km/h. And than angry if somebody like to introduce meaningful regulation. <br /><br /> I think you don't have to be afraid if you ride or build 100 % Human power only for regulations. Perhaps there will be general speel limits for all traffic. But that make sense. Driving 50 in a crowded city make no sense, car or bike. If you live in a country with bad covernace you may have luck (if you may padel with no speed limits) or be unlucky (If they think they need all space for cars, or if you are a woman and not allowed to drive.) But that is not of my concern. I make a meaningful vehicle. For me it is healty, efficient and I can drive it with pleasure. And that fits now in the moped regulations now (in Germany and the Netherlands)<br /><br />I can drive 20 km/h in my Sunrider Veloquad, but I hate it. I'm use to 40-45 km/h and I don't want drive slower. In my car I also don't drive 30 km/h if 80 is allowed and save. It make no sense to make a hybrid who is also good for peddling only. Than the quality is simply not good enough if you have the feeling that you need the pedels as back up. You need pedels as a integrated part of the vehicle. The quality is sadly not good enough at this moment. That is why I'm looking a big adoption producer for my hybrid. I can make a hand full 45 km/h velomobiles a year and than give good service and warranty for those few. But that is not a good business model. That is a developing strategie to come to the richt insights and partners. <br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16679854616016775286noreply@blogger.com